TCC 37: Festivals and Competitions - TCC Roundtable

[Aaron] Welcome to the Theorist Composer Collaboration, a podcast series highlighting modern composers and music theorists. My name is Aaron D’Zurilla. I'm the host of this podcast and also a music theorist myself. Today we have a special episode, the third TCC Roundtable with today's discussion being on the topic of festivals and competitions. These roundtables are occasional breaks from the interview format of the typical episode, showcasing casual conversations with various people in and around the music academic industry on the panel. And speaking of the panel, we have our first member, Dr. Francisco Javier de Alba, known professionally as Dr. Paco, is a clarinetist, composer, and educator based in Phoenix, Arizona. He is an award -winning performer with appearances across the United States, Europe, and Asia. As a self-published composer, Dr. Paco's music has been premiered and performed worldwide, with over a decade of teaching experience, including as faculty at Arizona State University. He now teaches a private studio of more than 30 students. Dr. Paco, welcome back to the podcast. How are you doing?

[Dr. Paco] I'm doing well. I'm glad to be back.

[Aaron] Yes, I mean, just as a small, you know, just asking you how you've been doing, your episode, episode 24 was October 7th, a little bit ago. How have you been doing since then?

[Dr. Paco] Been doing really well. Yeah, wow. It does kind of feel weird for that, to think about that episode being so long ago. It feels like yesterday, I feel like I was talking to you. But yeah, it's been great. Just had, yeah, I've just kind of been doing the grind and living music, which is really good. Lots of compositions that I've been composing. Some premieres coming up this summer. So a lot of exciting things.

[Aaron] Yes, and we were just speaking about this before I hit record, but your social media content, particularly on Instagram, gives Mr. Beast a run for the money in terms of production quality, of course, is more substantive than the person I just mentioned. But yes.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah, I appreciate that. Yes. Yeah, I just hit a thousand followers which was kind of like one of my goals for this year so I was excited to hit it pretty early in the year. And yeah I'm just if people don't, haven't found me yet at my pages what I'm trying to do is just build a community of positive and kind musicians that can all kind of help each other grow. At the same time sharing my journey in music, and then hopefully giving little lessons of lessons learned that I've kind of learned along the way in my own music career to help others kind of avoid any heartache.

[Aaron] Certainly, heartache abound in the freelance world, especially. But of course, your social media will be in the description. Now, our other panelists for today. Professor Nadine Silverman is a composer clarinetist whose music has been described as cinematic and emotional. When she's not composing, she teaches music theory, aural skills, and composition at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. Professor Silverman, welcome back to the podcast. How are you doing?

[Professor Silverman] I'm great. Thanks for having me back. This is fantastic.

[Aaron] Similar question to you. You are actually on the podcast. Earlier than Dr. Paco, you were September 2nd, episode 22. How have you been doing since then? I've noticed a good deal of some premieres and such on social media and so on.

[Professor Silverman] Yeah, it's been, I guess, a really busy eight couple of months. Eight couple of months. It's been a really busy eight months. Doing my first year of full-time teaching and then balancing that with composing and freelancing. The big premiere that I have not been able to stop talking about was with the Salt Lake City Symphony with the soloist Dr. Laura Grant here on clarinet. It was a 25-minute clarinet concerto, the biggest project I've ever done, and to see it actually come to fruition and be performed by real human beings. It was incredible. And we're actually doing the piano version for premiere this summer. So we're going to premiere the recital version. I say we, I'm not playing. Laura and her pianist, Liz will be premiering the recital version over the summer. And I have a couple other premieres coming up, but that's been the biggest thing, the teaching and the concerto.

[Aaron] Yes. Wonderful. I mean, You've been certainly doing a lot in the past year. I'm sure you've got even more coming up. And, you know, I paired you guys together in particular for this episode. One, because Nadine, you sent me the contact info for Paco, so I only know him because of your suggestion. And also because, as any listeners familiar or not with our panelists here, may recognize from their bios, we have people who have institutional experience, obviously as students, as teachers, and also as pretty acclaimed freelancers, people doing all sorts of different things, something that is very important in the conversation of festivals and competitions. I'm going to give just a little rundown of our broad topic here, and then we're going to get into some discussion about it. So in the field of composition, you know, there are a few entities that bring together a compositional community outside of universities, quite like festivals. And conversely, for a freelance artist, a competition might also be one of the only handful ways to gain wider acclaim by an official entity. But it's also certainly stressful in a number of ways that festivals might not be. As a music theorist, I have an understanding of what place conferences and symposiums have within my own field, on our CVs, on our job interviews, and so on. But the idea of formal composition events, such as festivals and compositions, at least to me, an outsider in this case, a bit daunting. Now, the general prompt, and I'm going to let's go with Professor Silverman first. In your perception, what role do festivals and compositions play within your career and where you occupy in composition?

[Professor Silverman] I mean, personally, within my career, I think festivals have occupied a much more positive overall space. I think competitions, you sort of send a score off into the void and sometimes you hear back. And on very rare occasions, do you hear back anything good. At least in my personal experience, I've won one competition. I don't know how many I've applied for. So competitions serve, definitely they serve a good purpose, but I think overall. emotionally is a net negative. Whereas festivals, you get to have this amazing opportunity to go and be within a cohort of composers that you've never met before. When you sort of get used to a group of composers or a group of teachers, There is some implicit bias towards your own writing style that a group of strangers has absolutely no obligation to uphold. And it can be, you know, there can be some some comments made by a cohort that is maybe or maybe less than more on the criticism side of constructive criticism. But sometimes being able to actually hear that from someone who hasn't been teaching you for four years is a really valuable thing if you can sort of move past the sting of it, if you will. I think they're really important. They have different sort of levels of importance for me. I think festivals have been, if you can swing it financially, festivals have been the most positive and competitions have not.

[Aaron] Fair enough. Dr. Paco, same question to you.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah, it's actually a little bit validating to hear the same kind of almost the same experience. I don't know if that's like a good thing. I guess it's a good thing, but it just it kind of validates my experience. But also at the same time, yeah, I totally agree in that. I feel like with competitions, I've always had that same experience of like, yeah, you just put a bunch of stuff out into the void and then see if anything sticks. And most of the time it's not. And then the, you know, the amount of that much rejection towards one person is sometimes very overwhelming and can, you know, can lead people to leave their career almost. Which is a shame because a competition, a panel of judges, like judging your music doesn't necessarily mean it's good or bad. It might just mean someone either resonated more with that panel you know panel of judges there's also kind of sometimes politics that go into things, unfortunately. And then so that's kind of my spiel about my experience with competition but when it comes to festivals and just like having an opportunity to meet other composers and hear their music, see what they're doing, see what they're interested in. It just opens up this whole floodgate of other things that you can consider for your own compositions, music that you may have never discovered before, styles of music that you've never discovered before, even cultures. And so, yeah, I think having that experience of being exposed to all those things, definitely, yeah, net positive, as we're calling it. And the thing too is it might not be everyone's experience. Like I've had some other friends that had a lot of success in competitions, but then on the flip side, haven't had the kind of financial means to go to a bunch of festivals, you know, every summer or whenever they're held. So there are some pros and cons to kind of both of them.

[Aaron] So I'm sensing generally more of a positive vibe towards festivals as opposed to competitions for a number of reasons. And for the first little section here, let's stick with festivals. So competition is easy to like conceptualize in my head, like how that works. But as someone who's not a composer, I hear a lot of things about a lot of festivals in that a lot can happen depending on what it is. So I'm going to now open it up. I'm not going to direct. What all happens at a typical festival?

[Professor Silverman] For composers, I don't know that there really is a typical festival. The thing about festivals that, and this will come under the caveat that I have been to two festivals as a composer and one as a clarinetist, you can have a festival without composers. But you can't have a composer's festival without performers. It doesn't, unless it's solely towards electronic music. You can't have a festival with composers and no performers. But you can have a billion festivals, and they do, with only performers and no composers. Those festivals are geared towards orchestra, opera, chamber music, etc. Sometimes they'll have a composer on faculty. But they don't always have a cohort studio of composers. The festivals that I've been to, one of them was specifically a new music festival. And that one, those new music festivals are going to have pretty substantial cohorts of composers. They might have a couple of composers on faculty. They have their own schedule. You sort of have to do one or the other. Where you're either functioning as a composer you write a piece specifically for the festival, or multiple, if the festival is long enough you can write a piece while you're there but they're not always long enough. I usually go to shorter ones because then I can go back to work over the summer, and because they're you know not as expensive. But the, like, structure of a new music festival I feel like is more geared towards actually bringing the, like doing something with the composers. I was at a different festival where I attended as a composer and a performer. I had enough time to do both. And I felt like if I only did composition, I would have not had as much to do as everyone else. I wouldn't have had the same, I want to say strength of schedule. That's such a football term, but like, I wouldn't have had the same, I would have had a lot of open space and not to compose something, just sort of dead time where my options were oh you can attend a master class for somebody's instrument. But it was very, there were composers there but a lot of them didn't really do a whole lot unless they were also performing.

[Aaron] So at these more performance focused festivals art is new music spotlighted or is it typically like you know the old joke of like oh, we have all the serious music, and then we'll throw on a new piece or something like that? What are the performance-focused festivals, the repertoire?

[Dr. Paco] Yeah, I'll jump in. From the ones I've experienced, it's, I don't know, I guess there's a range, I guess, depending on what festival you go to. And you kind of, from either the website or when you're researching these festivals, you kind of get the vibe of what their direction is. I've been to some where, yeah, it is like, okay, we're going to, you know all the performers that are attending this festival are spending a lot of their time with the like serious music and then they have like you know the composers that are there. They have like maybe one piece that they kind of throw in to an ensemble that's like okay here's that like other piece just read it once and then play it. So that's you know something I’ve experienced. But then on the flip side there is like the more, kind of, new music focus kind of where the whole point is all the music is going to be new. And so, you know, the composers are working very diligently with these ensembles, having multiple coachings with the composer, you know, even going through like, if it is a masterclass with an instrument, then a lot of time in that masterclass is spent on like, this is what my instrument can do for, composers’ information. And so those are a lot of fun, because then you get to kind of like hear all the weird stuff that instruments can do. But that's kind of, my experience is that it can be a range and you have to kind of sift through what you want to do.

[Aaron] Certainly. And what, what is the distinction? Maybe this is an asinine comment for people who are in the composition world, but like whenever I see people going to composition or like clinics, like the Midwest Clinic or something like that, that's looks like a festival, but is it?

[Professor Silverman] It's a conference. So yeah it's a conference that's called a festival or a clinic but it's a conference.

[Aaron] So the vibe is different, I’m assuming. So let's talk about, you know there have been a couple comments about the issue of accessibility when it comes to festivals, particularly financial. So is it, now, when I say just travel cost, that's a big thing because there's also time lost with like work and then like literally paying to be able to travel and accommodations and so on. But are like registrations expensive?

[Professor Silverman] Yeah, it depends on the festival. Some of them offer a couple of small scholarships. Occasionally you'll get one where it says if you get in you’re funded. Those are pretty rare and they're in high demand, and usually those are not composer focused festivals. Usually those are like the opera ones or the orchestral ones.

[Aaron] But like what's a typical registration fee?

[Professor Silverman] It depends on the duration of the festival. Like I’ve been to a five day long festival, and then I've been to two week long festivals, but there are also eight week long festivals. It's basically summer camp. Yeah, it's essentially a summer camp for high school and collegiate composers and performers. Also they don't always have strong composition. It's a lot of orchestral. Like the big ones that I'm thinking of are more geared towards either opera or orchestra. And the one that I know of, the big one that does actually have a composition studio, I believe the maximum age is like 18 or 20.

[Aaron] What?

[Professor Silverman] Which I didn't know how to compose when I was 18 or 20. So I wouldn't even been able to like know that I wanted to go to something like that.

[Aaron] What was the festival like? Savants only? Like what?

[Professor Silverman] Yeah, basically. Yeah, I mean, it's a really prestigious festival, but I did not know that I wanted to go to something like that until I was long past too old. But for access in terms of cost, it really depends on the situation. I mean, I went to a festival where I did not have to purchase a plane ticket, and I still ended up with, you know, significant costs in admission fees, lodging, food. Because it was in New York, I could get there pretty easily but I wasn't going to commute into the city every single day for two weeks. So I had to buy three meals a day in Manhattan and I had to I mean we stayed in a dorm so it wasn't like you have to get a hotel but like it wasn't inexpensive to just exist there. Even if the festival cost had been paid for it still would have been pretty high to just be there.

[Aaron] So let's play, before you jump in, Dr. Paco, let's play a game of higher or lower. So on the low end of registration for a music theory conference, the lowest I've paid is $15. I'm assuming that the registration, Professor Silverman, your face. So the lowest I've paid is $15. I'm assuming. Let's shake our heads. that it's higher for festivals. Okay, so on the high end, I've paid $90. Is it more than that? Okay, I'm getting reactions.

[Professor Silverman] It's a couple digits more than that.

[Aaron] Oh my goodness, really? That's crazy. See, I thought that the $90 was mildly stingy. I'm not going to say which organization.

[Professor Silverman] I would love it if our festivals, even our conferences were $90. I think even Midwest just to go is like 200, I think.

[Aaron] That's crazy. That's wild. Yeah, wow. Well, okay, in defense to SMT, I did register the week of, which is why it was $90. But I should have registered earlier. It was much cheaper. It was like $50 at one point. But wow, okay, this puts that in perspective. Dr. Paco, what's your take?

[Dr. Paco] Yeah. All I wanted to say is the only way I was able to afford to go to anything, basically, like when I was in college to attend anything was through grants and scholarships that I applied for. And I'm like really grateful that I earned those scholarships and grants, but because, yeah, I would have just like not gone. And so then that's just experience that because of financial like limits I, you know, I don't get to experience those. And thinking of those experiences that I actually went and did a lot of my career and a lot of like the connections I have today were because of those things that I attended. So just thinking about that barrier and how there's so many more people that like maybe I'm the one who won the grant. And it just so happened that, you know, I was the one that won it and they didn't. And they like our positions in life can be totally different just on that that sole fact. So it does kind of like make me sad sometimes. So I think that's for me the kind of biggest thing that I see being kind of unfair, you know, not really kind of a level playing field for people to get this experience. Because it is something that that can take your career to the next level and get your network just to grow that much more. And so, yeah, it's kind of the biggest thing I see happening. And yeah, it is true. Nadine is totally right in that you have to think about your food and your lodging and travel and everything. And it all starts to add up really quickly on top of everything you're having to pay for the registration. Sometimes like you have to be the one to you know provide your score so you're printing all this music. And like at the time I didn't have a printer so I was printing at FedEx and paying. You know so it's a whole thing there's like a lot of layers that go into it. But yeah so that's kind of like what my experience has been.

[Professor Silverman] Yeah, I would agree with that. I've had a pretty similar experience. Sometimes your university will offer like summer travel funding, but it's not, you know, it's not a lot. It's something, you know, it's better than nothing. But scholarships are usually available. They're not widely available. It does have a lot to do with, you know, are you able financially to swing it or are you lucky enough to be awarded a scholarship or skilled enough, depending on if it's a merit-based scholarship. Or if it's just sort of like I don't know I don't know how they award scholarships it could literally be anything it could be alphabetical for all I know.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah I mean the one that I've applied to it's like sometimes it's just you write about like you have to like try to prove to them like hey this is like what's what it's going to do for me. And so like sometimes it's just like oh they liked how you wrote, you know, and not even like writing as in like composition writing it's like they just liked your letter. Or I have been to, I scoured literally everything and everywhere for scholarships and opportunities for funding so one of them I applied to I went to go like they were going to award it and the way they chose was they picked it out of a hat. And like our application and that's who won that won the money so it's you never know.

[Professor Silverman] That's crazy.

[Aaron] That's uh that sadistic, maybe a word? I don't know that's pretty crazy. And so I did not realize to the level that accessibility was actually an issue with festivals, particularly in financial. It's like it creates a tier system of people who can, like at a class level, who can participate in these sort of things. Which is highly problematic. And I mean I'm sure there's only so much organizers can do, especially in today's current day and age when actual public funding is in short and smaller, smaller supply. That's a slightly different conversation. But let's talk about like the benefit of participating in festivals. So an obvious one, both of you have brought up networking. Any sort of event like this, like conferences for my sake and festivals for yours, obviously networking. You literally physically participate in the field that you're in. Huge benefit. Here's a question for you guys who have held multiple different kinds of positions in composition. See, in music theory, if you want to be taken seriously as someone who participates in the field, you need to go. You don't necessarily, I mean, it's really good for you if you present. Once you start being on the job market, you better present at a conference. But like if you get a Ph.D. application and they've never been to any conference, that's like, oh, that's kind of questionable. Is it similar with festivals in the field of composition where it's like an underlying expectation that if you're quote unquote serious that you go to them?

[Professor Silverman] I think more and more now people are realizing that cost is a massive barrier. I mean, I never even attended a festival until grad school. Every summer when I was an undergraduate, I worked and I worked during the semesters too, but I worked a lot more during the summer and I wasn't about to just take six weeks off to go like live in the mountains for a couple of weeks. Right. Like I didn't have this. I didn't feel like I had the skills to justify doing that and take shouldering that financial barrier at the time. Now it's I mean, it's a little different now because I'm a professor. But when I was in my master's, I went to only really short festivals specifically because of that, you know, that barrier. I think for me, I would never judge a student based on if they hadn't. shelled out a couple grand over the summer to go to something. I can't say the same for, I can't speak for, you know, colleagues. Not specifically my colleagues, just, you know, composers on faculty at universities. I think, you know, to some extent your portfolio speaks more for your skills than what you've been to. For me, my portfolio grew as a result of attending some of these things. Like I was able to meet some musicians who later on commissioned me. So I've been to three festivals and I've gotten probably four or five commissions as a result of just attending those festivals from people who I met while I was there after the fact. And so sometimes you get really lucky. On the back end, they sort of end up reimbursing themselves the festivals, or at least in part, depending on how much you are making on the commissions. But I would find it very, I would not personally take it out on a student for having not attended a multi-thousand dollar festival. If that's the case, I may want to see that they've been applying for competitions because a lot of them are free. But again, if it comes down to the subjectivity of the adjudicators didn't like their style, no, I'm not going to hold it against them that they haven't won anything or that they haven't attended anything.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah. Before I before I forget this other thought, it's kind of bringing back our last conversation, but it's just kind of like a caveat I want to say is that because I've also been on, to an extent, on the other side of like organizing these events. It's not on their fault to like you know, in order to have these festivals they cost money. And so that's what kind of, and when, you know, you attend, when you attend a festival, it's really good. And they have all these kind of things available to you, you kind of understand why you spent all this much money to be there. So I don't want to like fault most of the, most of the festivals and organizers. They're just trying their best with what they've got and like what they can do. And if anything, most of the time, I know that they break even or sometimes they, just a lot of it is coming out of their pocket. Whether if it's like you know professors that are organizing it and a lot of it does just you know come out of their pocket. So that's all I’ll say with that. I don't know about some of the bigger ones but at least for some of the ones that I’ve been to that are um like maybe less known or kind of smaller organizations, they try their best. And I understand that. And so, but yeah, when it comes to whether or not you have to do these things, it might be a controversial take, but I think for me, I kind of knew if I didn't go to those festivals or if I didn't go, like kind of put myself out there, I was going to go nowhere, if that makes any sense. The college I, went to was in this sort of bubble and so you get into this mindset of like you know you kind of are around the people and you that's like your little music world, and you think like that is all. But then when the first time I ever went to any kind of conference or festival or kind of any organization where there's other musicians that are outside of my bubble it kind of opened my eyes of like oh my gosh if I like don't get out of this bubble then like I’m not I'm not going to grow. And so that was kind of my understanding of it when I was kind of thinking about how do I how do I make sure I'm going to like set myself up to go into, you know, into the next steps of my career, which would be like, you know, grad school or beyond. And kind of building those relationships. So there is this kind of double-edged sword of they're really expensive and you don't necessarily have to do them, but you should do them ish, you know? So, uh, and that was kind of my struggle going through and trying to kind of pick and choose what I was going to spend a lot of money on. Cause you could end up at a festival that's like not great, you know, or like misorganized or whatever. And you still, you know, you'll still meet, meet like a couple, like I still think, I still think back to like a couple of people that I've met, those kinds of, those, gatherings and we're still good friends and have had that connection lead to other things. Yeah it's kind of like a sense it's more of like the more times you put yourself out there the more chances it is that you'll make those connections. So yeah again my it's a double-edged sword that I think it's maybe up to our generation to figure out, but you know our generation has a lot to figure out.

[Aaron] Oh gosh yeah put that on the list. But we said I mean there's certainly a lot to say about personal growth as you were pointing out. My perspective on my field changed greatly in a positive direction after going to the national conference, Society for Music Theory for the first time. I mean, Florida State is a pretty big bubble, but it's still a bubble. Anywhere is a bubble relative to an entire country or field or so on. And so let's go to the apparently evil sibling of festivals, competitions. I'll let you guys just riff on competitions if you want some more. But my personal perception of competitions, and this is out of watching people like in my undergrad at a highly compositionally focused undergrad. Professors pushing students to do competitions as much as they can for a better chance to get into grad school. And then at Florida State. For about a year, I attended the weekly meetings for the Student Composers Incorporated or something, and there were a good number of workshop days on preparing for competitions. I was kind of surprised. And, like, my perception of it is if you don't get accepted or if you don't win a competition, your career is not defunct. But if you do get a competition, ooh. You're in for a treat later on with your resume being bumped up. And it seemed like, as a lot of things like this are, kind of a rat race a little bit, the competition. And so what are your guys' experiences with that?

[Professor Silverman] I definitely have some, just I think, background on what a competition would require. Because they're not all the same. There's actually a lot of variation in what a competition is, composer competition can be. The first question that I usually ask myself when I see a posting for a competition is, is the instrumentation standard or is it really weird? Because sometimes you'll get groups of like, oh, it's a saxophone, a flute, a viola, and a soprano and a percussionist and we want new music and so if you pay us this $30 application fee and write a brand new piece for an ensemble that doesn't exist anywhere else and we like it we might play it. That's a red flag. Like personally I see that specifically as a red flag. There's the fee, there's if you pay to submit, if it's a pay what you can if it's free. Occasionally a pay what you can I’ll do if it's an organization that I support. So personally, I, the one competition that I actually won was run by the International Alliance for Women in Music. I was going to probably donate to them anyway. So, I was just like, all right, I'll just pay an application fee, like whatever. And then I ended up winning. So that was pretty cool. There's what's the award? Is it a cash prize? Is it exposure? Is it a premiere or a performance? Cause those are different. And is it a recording? Sometimes if there is no cash prize, but it's like, we'll record it professionally, that's actually like worth it. Or if it's a good ensemble that's going to premiere one of your pieces on a public concert. If they're asking for a work specifically that has already been written, but has not been premiered, sort of sends up a red flag. Sometimes that does happen where, you know, I'm not going to write a brand-new work for a competition on the off chance that I'll win. I'm going to submit something that I've already written. Unless it's the fifth kind, which is, is it a commission contest? Which is, are you submitting a work sample? And if the group likes your work, they will commission you to write something very specific. This is going to be a long-winded answer, but a lot of times the groups that are running a composition contest are actually looking for something really specific. And frankly, they should just commission a composer to do it or have a commission contest. I mean, if you have the saxophone, flute, viola, soprano, percussion ensemble, they should be commissioning somebody to write a work for them. Not sifting through, you know, a bunch of works that have been written specifically to try to win this competition. Like, obviously commissions are expensive, which is why consortia exist. If you can't, if your group can't afford, this is my opinion, if your group can't afford to commission a composer, they need to settle for a call for scores, even if the works have already been premiered. That's my like soapbox about it because as a composer, like it's hard enough to get paid for your art and to get paid what you think that you should get paid for your art. It can be very difficult because creating something from scratch, is expensive um like even just thinking about you know a tattoo artist like they're creating a piece of art for you. It's not going to be cheap if the group has the funds for it a commission contest is really like a great idea. You can send in work samples of works that have already been recorded. I think more places should accept MIDI because sometimes your live premiere doesn't go that well. It happens. A lot of them are like live recordings only or like live recordings encouraged MIDI accepted but not recommended. Which is my favorite phrase ever. But there's just, there's a lot that goes into it it's so much more than sending a score off, as we sort of I mean we did this we said this you just sort of send your scores off into the void and hope for the best. Sometimes there's more to it than that. And sometimes the more to it is a little bit of a red flag or a massive red flag, depending. I just don't buy into the competitions that require you to write an premiered piece that might get played if you win. That's sort of like, especially if there's a fee, that's like, really?

[Aaron] I don't understand the, so you can win, but it might get played. If you win, but it still may not get played? That's interesting.

[Professor Silverman] Usually if you win, it will get played. Again, it depends because we all know what happened in 2020. So, like those people who maybe won a competition in 2019 with the premiere date set for the summer of 2020, it's possible their pieces got played on a later concert. It's possible the ensemble pulled it. Yeah. Like you sort of just have to take it with an anything can happen. You still get to put the, that you won on your resume, but yeah.

[Aaron] I had a different composer on Quinn Mason who won a, oh no, it wasn't a competition. I think he was just commissioned or maybe it was a competition commission, but he had his symphonic piece premiered in Seattle the week before everything shuttered. And the piece was called a Joyous Trilogy, quite a, quite a time. Dr. Paco, I'll hand you Nadine's soapbox. But really quick, I want to say, Nadine, I know you came up with that off the top of your head, but man, that viola would have to work very hard to be heard in that ensemble. But anyways, Dr. Paco.

[Dr. Paco] It happens. Yeah, it really does. You do see the weirdest kind of groups. And as someone who enjoys writing for weird groups, it is fun to see those. But yeah, I totally agree. if anything, Nadine was, she was taking the words right out of my mouth. As far as yeah, as far as all that goes, I think like, when it comes to, particularly when it comes to composers getting paid. Yeah, it can be very difficult to kind of try to help people understand what goes into us writing and creating, and it's not just oh you're just at a computer or you're just kind of at a piano making it up and you can just like just pops out. It's like, sometimes these pieces like Nadine's giant piece that she wrote takes you know months and months and so much planning, and sometimes I know Nadine had talked about like actually going out and biking and like, you know, doing these things like that takes a lot of time and money and, you know, investment. Like particularly myself, I've been really into rediscovering my connections with Filipino culture and the sounds of Filipino culture and the music. And so that's hours and hours of me researching and reading articles and, you know, sorry, reading articles and doing a lot of work you know. And so as composers we are working and we're providing a service so just like any other service in the world it does cost money. And ours is also years and years and years of study and education and student loans and, you know things that we also have put into making our craft. And it's not just like you know some you aren't hiring some random person you're hiring someone who has dedicated their life to creating art and collaborating with other musicians to make this art. So then when you, it does feel like a little slap in the face when you see these things where you have to pay this fee and it's like there's all these kind of red flags that we see and stuff that won't come into fruition or, you know you are just writing something that is going to just sit in your computer for however long because you know it didn't win. Or it's so specific that you just spent like a month or two or even more writing this very specific piece for this very specific competition and that's all just kind of wasted time, if like you don't win or whatever. And for me that's kind of more of what I wanted to kind of speak to, was when you do get rejected a lot and this and it's not really you know maybe people have more fortitude than I do, but you do start to have a lot of self-doubt and it starts to just grow and you do start to doubt everything you're writing. And it can really affect your own art. And so for the longest time I actually kind of hung up my little jacket or my little hat of being a composer and kind of, I didn't think I could, I could go into composition. And so for all of my degrees, if no one knows, I actually have all my degrees in clarinet performance and composition was always like, I studied it in my undergrad and then kind of had that kind of thrust upon me of all these like rejection and all these things that I wasn't sure about. I had gone into my undergrad as a clarinet performance major and then ended up ending in a clarinet performance major because I was too afraid of my abilities as a composer because of all the rejection I had gotten. And so, but then what's so crazy is that in my graduate degrees, I made, or I ended up composing and being commissioned more than I had ever been in my undergrad by people just in my community. And then eventually it grew from there when other people started hearing my music. And so it really confused me when I was like, if I were to label my career right now, it's probably in thirds of teaching, performing, and actually composition. And so it really surprised me that there was a point where I was making more money composing than teaching and performing. So that really kind of, and that was me as someone who said, oh, I guess I'm never going to be a composer and put that hat away. And so it kind of shows you that these competitions and these rejections, and sometimes even getting rejected from festivals too, or not accepted or whatever, if there's only a certain amount of slots in a composition program. It does kind of put a lot of weight on anyone and it can really stifle someone who might be a great composer, but they're just not, you know, they're just not either applying to the right things or, you know, the current like state of whatever is hot, you know, in music is not their music. But then you know, like me, a few years later, all of a sudden, it was, you know, my music started to become more popular, or people started to hear my music and, and, you know, kind of want me to write more. So it's, that kind of, for me, that was the soapbox that I wanted to kind of bring forward was that these things aren't the sole kind of level or like they're not the scale or the thing that you should measure your ability to do something or your ability to like if you want to be a composer just go do it. You know who cares what competitions and festivals and other people are saying. Just keep writing your music and then if you need to do other things in the meantime, like you know I've worked a bunch of retail jobs I've worked a lot of jobs in not-music. Go do those things. But, you know, in the in the time you have to put, you know, in whatever time you have, you know, let kind of keep that fire kind of stoked, you know, and just keep let it keep burning. And eventually something will catch. And that was the experience I had.

[Aaron] Festivals and competitions. Who cares? I'm just kidding.

[Professor Silverman] I think we had like the same exact experience of deciding that we wanted to lean into composing. Because I also did a clarinet performance degree thinking that I couldn't be a composer. And here we are.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah, here we are.

[Aaron] I forgot the reason that both of you know each other is that you're both clarinetists and both composers. But I mean, you seem pretty well motivated. But if it's any consolation, Dr. Paco, you probably have on social media, more people looking at any of your content than any of those people who rejected you. So, you know.

[Dr. Paco] I appreciate that. Yeah, it's what's crazy to even to this day,  I always have to talk, and my wife is kind of my she's my rock in this situation of, I do always have to turn to her and say, like, kind of for reassurance of, am I crazy? Because sometimes I get that imposter syndrome of, no, this is all fake. People are just liking me because like, you know, they're trying to be inclusive or whatever it is, you know. I have like that voice in my head that just constantly tells me like, people don't really actually like your music. And so I have to, kind of, like other people in my life also do really, you know, they, I'm very open with them about, you know, did you actually enjoy that music? Or like, you know, like I just try to find people where I can check in and kind of give myself that okay this is not real, this is real, as far as like that that voice in your head that tells you like you're not great, you're not good, you're not doing enough. Those things and it's very important, I think for musicians growing and going into this career, and musicians especially in this time to have that that kind of external person that can say no you're doing okay.

[Aaron] Certainly. I mean, I think that's a struggle for most people on in just the music world. I'm especially thinking of like people who want to be just straight up performers. Let's say you go through just two straight years of brutal symphonic auditions where it's like there's one position open for one orchestra and there's 700 violins who are auditioning. It's like, you know, just because you weren't the one out of 700 doesn't mean you weren't the fifth or the 10th or hell, the 50th. You're all good. And, you know, one. Oh, sorry, Nadine. Go ahead.

[Professor Silverman] No, I was going to add, and sometimes it comes down to personal style preferences. Like in the same way in an orchestral audition, a specific orchestra might be looking for a specific sound. In a composition contest, they might be looking for a specific style. And if they're getting, if they don't put any sort of criteria on style, which they wouldn't, I feel like that'd be weird. But if they don't do that, they're going to get pieces from, that range from completely tonal to completely electronic or completely atonal. And whatever they want is what they're going to pick, and they don't tell you when you get your rejection that it was because oh you just write in a style that we're not looking for. I would rather hear that. I would rather just know that like oh they're just not, they just, this isn't their vibe. Fine, like there's room for every musical style. I would like to know that mine wasn't appropriate for this specific competition rather than no yeah we went with somebody else. We got, it's always like, well we got a billion applications so we had a very strong applicant pool. Okay I just, unfortunately your work was not chosen, like why wasn't it chosen?

[Aaron] I just, I hate that phrase, very strong applicant pool. I've heard that so many times when it comes to so many things. And also a couple anecdotes that I can think of is like with the maybe right time, right place when it comes to something that you're applying, that even applies in music theory where I've personally had, where I'll send out a proposal, which I have to say with music theory, you even doubly so have to do the sort of like kumbaya, like, okay, I've worked on this. I'm sending it out. Expect nothing. Like you tell yourself to expect nothing because it's like, I mean, it's impossible to put your entire personality and work into 500 words and three pages. Like it, that's just not how that works. But I've personally sent out proposals and then it gets denied. And then I go to the conference and I'm like, oh, actually, my paper wouldn't really fit with any of these sessions. So it's like, oh, okay, so maybe they liked it, but it just wasn't going to fit with the conference. Okay, I get that. And then also, conversely, I've been to them where I'm like, oh. You had room for another one this session. That's all I'm saying. I'm being petty. I'm being petty and ridiculous. And another anecdote, one thing that I try to remind myself of is I remember Dr. Leigh Van Handel. She's a professor at the University of British Columbia in music theory. She does work in pedagogy. And she did a keynote address at the Florida State Music Theory Symposium two years ago, I think. Yeah. And she shared with us, this tenured professor who's doing a keynote at a conference, who is publishing books and articles and is well-known in the field, told us that she has never had a proposal for a paper accepted by the Society for Music Theory. And it's just, you know, there's a number of reasons why that might be, but the point, but the more general point is similar to what you guys are saying is, she's still highly successful, brilliant and is walking the walk and talking the talk. But has not gotten that tip of approval from a program committee somewhere. And so, speaking of program committees, this is something that is of hot debate and constant discussion within the music theory field. Which is the power dynamic of a program committee or of, I don't know, whatever people decide, competitions and so on, and what they're looking for in styles and so on. It's hard not to think about. We certainly do with music theory, or at least I do. Many people do. I made it sound like I'm some person breaking ground. I'm not. It's hard not to think about the power dynamic of that. And I’m wondering what your guys’ thoughts are on this, is the somewhat implicit control over compositional zeitgeist that people who head competitions, who decide what gets put on, they decide what gets platformed, they decide what composers as well you know in anything like that. That's a value judgment of what they deem worthy to be put on a stage and promoted. I think about this with like, what composers do I choose to analyze? That's a value judgment that then like shifts in whatever small control I have my own direction. And if it's a festival or a conference, that's a big shift. Possibly you're promoting people's careers and. not some others and styles of music and so on and so forth so what are your guys’ thoughts with that?

[Professor Silverman] I think some of it, so you know we talked about how competitions are more financially accessible than festivals. I think there's a big asterisk on that because if you are writing the kind of music that gets picked up by a festival, by a competition very likely you have put significant funds into that process. Because it starts way earlier than when you start writing the piece. It's do you have time to focus on a freelance career? That's a big one. You need money to be able to focus on a freelance career. Do you have the expensive music notation software required to make this piece look really, really professional? Do you attend an institution? Or take lessons with somebody who is going to help you make your score exactly what the competition is looking for? And by extension, have you studied with enough people for enough years that your music is at the caliber that this ensemble is looking for? Coupled with, is there an application fee? Do I have to print something? Usually now printing and shipping is sort of like less there everything's through Google Drive now. I've like submitted a billion PDFs. And then all that just to anonymize your score, like, and send it off. And sometimes they're anonymous. Sometimes they're not, but there's so much that goes into. Did you have the education and the access to education required to win this very prestigious award? Because we don't really have people who just come out of the woodwork writing symphonies from what they hear in their head. I feel like the people talk about the Mozart Effect is in like, play your infant classical music. They'll get smart. I think the Mozart effect is the assumption that every composer just like hears stuff in their head and just writes it down. I have never once in my life been able to do that. And the amount of training that I would have to go through to be able to do that would cost me more than attending any festival multiple years in a row. Like, yes, competitions are more affordable in the moment, but the financial support required to be successfully winning prestigious competitions you may as well just go to a festival.

[Aaron] That's a good point.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah I think that's a good point to bring up because, and it goes it goes back to what we talked about with composers getting paid. Yeah there's so much that goes, I can think back to like when I was like in school like applying to things and also trying to compose and also trying to like, you know, be a clarinetist. It was like, you know, and also teach and there's like no time. So I, yeah, I could, there's definitely like tons and tons of like late night hours and just fit it. Like your free time, it does not exist. And most musicians free times doesn't, already doesn't exist. So then trying to compose for something that is going to lead to nothing is also a financial burden because, you know, you could have taken up more hours or taken up a second job, whatever it is. So that that is a good a good point to bring up. I think as far as like the power dynamic with, I think, panelists or judges. Maybe it's just because I was naive, but now it's come to light that a lot of these organizations, they do have panels or leaders or people who all look the same and don't necessarily look like myself or Nadine or have the background or the experience or the life experience or the financial experience of some of these people applying. Sometimes, and this might, again, it's my opinion, it might be hard, I think, for people in those positions of power to give up that power to kind of offer an opportunity for other experiences to be highlighted. And it's, especially when you have that power, it's like you almost don't have an ear, you're talking to a wall at some point where it's like, of course they don't want to give up that power to choose what gets highlighted. And to continue this path of like, you know, we want our, the head of whatever this organization is to continue to look like themselves. I'm trying to imagine, you know, it might seem scary for them. I don't know. I'm just trying to make up BS for them to validate their feelings. But it's, you know, it's I can kind of see their perspective of not wanting to give up that power. But at the same time, it's totally wrong. And so I think that is something that maybe some of these people, hopefully they can kind of see the other side of like, oh, wow, like me. I grew up very poor when I was younger and I was just lucky enough that my dad had gotten the steps in his own career that had led to like financial opportunity for me. And not a lot of people in that situation. Like I know a bunch of friends from my past that are still in those situations of kind of, you know, they didn't go to college or they didn't have the opportunity to finish high school or those things. And so that's, it's a giant tiered thing that leads to a bunch of issues. So the people at top you know my only hope is that they can kind of see that and eventually and I think going to festivals and going and going out does open you up to people like you know I got to talk to people about my own experience and hear about their life experience and we get to open up to each other. And then it creates a more like understanding. So I think if anything, just try to keep talking to people, open up about you, your personal experience and your background. And that's probably the best way and, and come at it at a place of trying to help them understand you. So that way they can then kind of surrender that control. And because they now understand your background. Anyways, that's my soapbox.

[Aaron] And this is a podcast. That's what it's all about. Yeah, I mean, some very important stuff there. I have to say one recollection that or one moment of perspective that I've had in the past couple of months is that I have a running Excel spreadsheet for this podcast where a little bit ago, my fiancé and I went through the faculty at, like, still doing it now, tons of different universities. Just a running list of people to check out their music and maybe invite onto the podcast. And look, it's no secret that music academia, and this is the pot calling the kettle black, being in music theory, is white and male very strongly. And again, this is coming from a music theorist. But it's like, and so when you look at university faculties and so on, people who are very especially going to be attuned to these organizations, competitions and festivals, who are the people also deciding who gets put on, what sort of things happen. Wow, it is white and old in particular. And man, I hope that our generation, when we get to that point, we'll have that kind of perspective because, yeah, I get it. Like if it's what you love, it's what you've done for a whole career. It's hard to let go. But also I'm going to be very vague with this because I don't want to be mean, but I remember years ago there was an article that I saw that at a major orchestra in the United States, there was a pianist who retired after like 50-60 years with the ensemble. And the article is talking about the fantastic contributions and so on and all I could think about was the tens of thousands of people that could that have like been praying for that kind of job, that it's like no that is blocked off. Some people lived and passed away while that person was in that position and it's, no tea, no shade to the to the individual that does, because if that's what you love, that's the golden job. That's like that's a life fulfillment. But also in a way, it's like, wow, that opportunity is dead and gone for like a generation because of that. And I think that's some of what you're getting at, especially when it comes into identity and diversity certainly can be an issue with that. Before we move on, is there anything else you guys want to say about you know power dynamics with festivals competitions Nadine? yeah

[Professor Silverman] I mean this isn't so much of a power dynamic it's sort of just a little bit about my experience with the only festival, the only competition that I’ve ever won. You may recall the group that sponsored the prize was the International Alliance for Women in Music, and while I’m extremely proud to have won that prize, it came with like could I have could I have won a competition if men were involved? And it really like kind of just sucks all the joy out of that win because there's no way that I didn't earn that. Like I know that I earned that but the fact that I have to continuously be like no no you deserved that, because it was a competition where quite literally half the population, and if you're going on composers probably like 80 percent of the playing field was taken out if you're going strictly on composers who could have applied for that festival. The IAWM is a fantastic organization. They're having me on to adjudicate this year. It's the background of like, okay, but those prestigious competitions, like, do I even have a leg to stand on? Or is this where I need to just, do I need to just apply for competitions where there are no men with the hopes that maybe I'll win a couple? Like that thought alone sort of just like leaves a really bad taste in my mouth over competitions. All of our words need to stop being the same word. Like we got competition, composition, commission, I'm done. But it definitely leaves a weird taste of like, what actually are my skills? How do my skills measure up against everyone versus just a small subsection of composers?

[Aaron] So both of you come from different elements of marginalized individuals. Nadine you are a female composer and Paco you are um Portuguese you said?

[Dr. Paco] So I'm Filipino and Spanish Filipino but yeah.

[Aaron] I completely missed that shot sorry.

[Dr. Paco] It's okay I mean you could say person of color, you could you know diverse background, anything. Because that's, I mean that also like it opens up a whole can of worms. My mom has comes from, you know, divorced parents. She was also adopted. It's a whole thing. And so there's this whole other kind of identity crisis that I've also gone through as far as when people who are like have multiple kind of heritages or backgrounds or whatever you want to call it. I always had said half and half right, I even said I think just now and what that lends to kind of like for myself is that I'm not fully Spanish or I'm not fully Filipino. Or what's even crazier is that technically I should just say I'm an American because I was born here in you know the United States. And so I don't have any kind of full identity in my mind growing up and so that is another thing that I'm having to kind of come to terms with. So then layer that on top of other people putting value on me as a person and my work and kind of like, oh, you don't fit into the person of color that we're looking for as far as their diversity or their tokenism.

[Aaron] Oh, geez.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah, it's a whole other ballgame that I've kind of had to deal with. And a lot of it too, sometimes it's just in my mind, but I'd like to say it's in my mind, but there's also that layer of kind of the times we live in. It's definitely kind of hard sometimes when you look at organizations, orchestras or panelists or whatever, and you don't, you can't really identify, like you can't see yourself, if that makes any sense. You don't have any representation. And so what I'm trying to do or how I'm trying to navigate through kind of the next stages of my career is I'm trying to find more community and in people who look like the world if that makes any sense? There's so many there's so many people out there and it's like I would want to lift up everyone who like isn't seen. So and that goes for a lot of different people so even like you know uh women in music that's the right now that's kind of one of the biggest things that I, as someone who also is marginalized, we kind of run into this issue of like who do we who do we let talk? So for me I had to, my first like kind of gut reaction was like, hey, I also need to have a voice. But at the same time, like, I also want to have like, I kind of have to be like, no, like, we're, we can't kind of be at odds with each other, we have to raise each other up. And so like, I just attended the She Women in Music Festival, and I got to perform music by women. And that was really a great experience and get to experience other women composers and women musicians and see how they're shaping the world and shaping the music landscape and it was like very empowering to be there and be a part of it and be able to celebrate them. Especially knowing like how it feels to be marginalized and kind of dismissed and those feelings. But on the flip side also get a chance to recognize like hey as a male, I also have privilege in some aspects. So yeah, just trying to like, I think what is it? It's not a competition of what privilege you have or what privilege you don't have. It's more just like, why don't we all just like recognize each other, understand each other and give each other that spotlight, or that chance to talk, or chance to be seen, a chance to be kind of celebrated. And so. when it comes to moving forward, at least for our generation, that's what my hope is, is that we can continue in that direction and continue just lifting each other up. And that doesn't necessarily mean suppressing anyone else, right? So it doesn't mean suppressing men or composers or male composers, because I also have male composers that also like, I mean, even yourself, you are very understanding of our situations and our kind of our background. And so it's not necessarily someone having to give us a voice or having to pass the microphone to us. It's more just let's just all open our ears and all like kind of open our eyes to each other is kind of the way I like to kind of visualize what we should be doing.

[Aaron] Certainly, certainly. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm sorry I mislabeled your heritage.

[Dr. Paco] It's totally fine. I mean, I think I've come to really love kind of being a little bit ambiguous. It does have a nice con like I used to get so offended when someone said oh where are you from? Because I would say oh I’m from you know California, I was born in California. And then they'd be like no like where are you really from and so like, which is a whole question right. But I've kind of unless I know they're specifically asking in a very like mean way or they're like trying to get at something for the most part it's someone who's just very curious about my my experience and just wants to hear story and hear me, right? So it's like, that's kind of that idea of they're just wanting to open their eyes and open their ears and see me. So if you see me, or if anyone's out there, you know, you ever run into me, feel free to ask where I'm from.

[Aaron] But not where you're actually from.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah, but not where I'm actually from.

[Aaron] Wonderfully loaded. Racist statement. But anyways, yes, thank you for sharing that. Intersectionality and identity is incredibly important. People, for whatever reason, find it okay to divorce those sort of things from art. But art is people and reflects them. So it's obviously a part of it. And to give a positive contrast to something I said earlier, so that spreadsheet I have of compositional professors across the country. So I have that for like contacting people who are at universities. In my experience of this podcast for over a year now, it's, I don't want to say surprising, but it is just really cool how diverse the world of composition is. It really is. Maybe not with the tenure track next to the name, but you know, you don't even have to dig very deep. Just go on Facebook, go on Instagram, look at the tags for composition and pieces and there's a, I mean, literally it's so diverse. I mean, proportionally, perhaps not, but it is there. And so thank you for sharing that about your background and experience, Dr. Paco. Always appreciate it with that. And so, Nadine, I'm going to throw this, we're coming to like a closing section here, and Nadine, I'm going to throw this to you first. So at the time of this recording, the most recent episode posted was Professor Michael Buchler. And we talked a bit about the political situation of the arts and academia. Now, this conversation is a little bit different than that. But I mean, and we also discussed in the episode how in somewhat, in a lot of ways, this is not political in the like sanitized CNN newsroom sort of way. What's happening in the United States right now affects not only of course marginalized people, marginalized people in the arts, and hell the arts in general. And we're talking about funding, we're talking about accessibility, we're talking about getting your name out there and being able to be freely moving and expressing yourself. All of those things are now contradictory to the current wind change in the country, or to be more critical, let's say stronger winds in the wrong direction than it was before. It's not like all of a sudden it got really bad. I mean, we've always had problems in this country, as many in the world. Let me get to my question. Sorry. Just setting this up. Because I'm not asking you to like state your political opinion, but a lot of this is like, you know, can people who are disadvantaged economically or not stylistically in line with what a governing board at an arts institute deems as good art or music or so on. How does that all come into the conversation of things outside of the university system? With funding these art institutes staying alive in this climate and more importantly literally people and their art staying alive um in this heightened climate.

[Professor Silverman] I mean personally, I think that art is, has always been political in some senses. I think that we need it more now more than ever, but you know it's it always sort of comes in and out of the public sphere the way that the arts are targeted or you know funding is cut. We will always have private institutions with big endowments who, I believe in some ways do have a responsibility to step up, and I say that with the caveat of I know very little about how institutions operate on the financial level both public and private. I teach adjunct at a public school so I don't know like I don't know how like budgeting works or any of that stuff. But I feel like there are institutions that have enough money to sponsor prizes geared towards music that gives commentary on today's political state. There are competitions all the time. I'll see where it's like the piece has to be centered around the theme of environmental justice. There are groups sponsoring those prizes. And I think that those types of competitions really need to push to the forefront because I think that that may, while it's not one of the like, quote unquote, big names that you might win, it's not going to be everyone applying for that. It's going to be people who feel a strong pull towards writing music about the current political state, probably a group of people who are on the same page as each other I would be pretty surprised if it went the other way, it could happen I don't know but I would be pretty surprised if it did. But I think also collegiate music programs that have the funding sort of to the extent that they maybe not be a state institution under some sort of pressure to do something very specific regarding DEI sort of have a responsibility to move in the opposite direction if they want their program to continue to progress forward in the direction that most college music programs are moving, which is towards diversity towards a more diverse group of composers not just in demographic but in musical style. Personally, my music has been, I don't want to say criticized for being quote unquote tonal or like next to tonal, but I definitely attended a festival where someone was like, oh, you write tonal music? And I was like, yeah, what the hell? So, you know, there's, it's not just demographic that needs to be continuously like supported. but also diversity in style and diversity in musical education and musical background. Because no, we don't all have the skills when we're 18 to get into an elite music school. No, we don't all have the funds when we're 18 to go to an elite music school. I mean, I went to a state school. It was less expensive than a lot of other schools I was looking at, but I went to a state school and I got a really good education out of it. But no, I did not get a conservatory education. But I think that schools that have the funds that are not actively losing them, they do sort of need to keep furthering that in the same direction that we have been going as a community of musicians, growing in diversity, growing in support for diversity. Yeah.

[Aaron] Yes, thank you. Dr. Paco.

[Dr. Paco] Yeah, I think I totally agree in that it comes down to if you have the means and you have the funds to kind of help or push or kind of shift things in the right direction. And I think that's, again, what it kind of maybe where the problem kind of arose was that the people who have the funds and have the money are able to push us in the other direction. So I think what we can do, and I deal with this a lot too in myself of like, sometimes I feel the overwhelming pressure of having to like change what's happening, right? Kind of be actively involved in what's happening. And we should to an extent, but there are, I think there are ways in that composers or organizations can do it in their own way. So for me, I don't necessarily like kind of post a lot about very political things. My Instagram is very, I try to keep it very positive and kind of a place for people to, not necessarily escape, but more just like you can feel safe here for the time being. And then, you know, and then we can kind of go to business, right? Kind of come back, relax, kind of reset, set aside that time to kind of get your mental space back into where it needs to be. So you're able to go and do something about what's happening. And then beyond that, like even in my music. I have a piece that's not particularly like about something very political or something very like kind of a hot topic or whatever it is. I, just in the fact that I'm living in this time period, I'm living in what's going on right now. My music is saying something, you know, about something. For example, I could be just writing a music that is just me connecting with my heritage and my Filipino culture and reconnecting with that and trying to claim it as like an idea part of my identity. But in doing that, in this climate, it is also kind of, kind of politically charged, right? I'm, I'm leaning into my diversity, I'm leaning into something that is not white, for lack of better terms. And so like whitewashed music, if that's a term I could use, it's not like I'm not trying to make my music kind of palatable to what I think like a competition or a festival is looking for. I'm trying to make my music what I want to express. And even in that case, you know, art is, my art is being, you know, it's political. And I think if you look back at other artists and you look back at other musicians or, you know, any arts really, their art is kind of about what's happening in their life and what they're experiencing. So I think no matter what, no matter kind of what happens, the art that is being produced right now, unless there's someone actively trying to push it in the in the direction of the winds that are going now or it's going to be speaking into the direction that we want things to go. The only kind of thing I could, you know, if someone's listening and they're thinking like, what can I do? And maybe they don't have the means to go, you know, do some sort of like they're not in an institution. They're not like a professor or they're not, you know, an adjudicator or whatever. They're just a student. They're just someone in music. They're just someone who likes music. Well, whoever's listening, you also have a power in what you listen to. You have a power in where you put your attention, where you, you know, sometimes I don't even like to listen to, or, or kind of, I always just, sometimes we'll just scroll past if there's like kind of, you know, the clips of stuff that's like kind of trying to make you enraged. It’s you know it's like okay well if I don't listen, sometimes if you don't listen to them then they'd also the kind of what they did to us. If we don't listen to them they don't have a voice. So just listen to the things and keep putting your attention and keep putting your energy into the things that in the in the direction that you want things to go and put your energy into what is going to make that change. And that also goes even more so for people who have the means, the financial means, the kind of job title means, whatever it is, it is your responsibility to also put your attention and push your focus on where we should be going. And maybe that's not necessarily like, oh, your school got rid of its DEI. Okay, but you can still accept students. You can still like choose to teach music that is not, you know, you can, you have these choices that you can still kind of continue to make. And even for myself in my teaching and my like composing and things and projects, I choose everything. Everything is, is I'm trying to like keep it in that same vein. So that way we can make a change and it's not, it doesn't have to feel like this giant, like we need to go and like. Hopefully we never get to this point and if we do then we will, but we don't have to go out and like riot right now you know or like we don't have to like kind of set a building on fire. Whatever it is you know we can set the building on fire with our music. We can be loud we can use the megaphone with our music. You know it's we have ways we can do it, and especially if you're in an institution where the DEI is gone or where you know they kind of sorry, my brain goes to like Columbia or whatever. Like if, if the head of your school folded, you know, kind of bent their knee, you still can in your position, especially if you're tenured, like, you know, you can do pretty much anything, you can choose what you need to be doing and what you, what you want to like amplify. So I think everyone in this time, like just needs to keep putting their energy in that way. But obviously. you know, take the time to, to put yourself in a strong mental state before you go do that. Cause you know, when we're, if we're all kind of broken, then nothing's going to happen.

[Aaron] Yeah. Thank you for, thank you for sharing that. And certainly a couple of things. One, it's a shame that you expressing your personal identity is a political, which it certainly is in today's age and actually has been for quite a while, but certainly right now. But that. That is quite sad. I appreciate your I don't want to call it apolitical because that that that word is kind of like is loaded in a number of ways. But your generous space that you try to create online, there's a lot to say about that. You know, we all need a breath and a breather and to not look at those clickbaity rage inducing things online, which. Less and less is it clickbait and it's just actually what's happening. And on the idea of these institutions have responsibility that go beyond dollars in their funding, at least as of, so this doesn't get maybe something else happens. As of May 31st, go Harvard. Do not fold Harvard. Keep going. Good example with that. But there's a lot to be said about all that. And thank you for sharing both of you with that. But we're coming to the close now. We've talked about a good number of different things. We might've traveled a little bit further away from festivals and competitions, but C 'est La Vie, you know, that's, that's the world of composition and music and art. It involves a lot of things because people make art and people are complicated. And so in closing, Let's start with you, Nadine. What projects do you have coming up? And second question, what would be a good way to contact you?

[Professor Silverman] So for projects I have coming up, I actually am doing a commission for the Kota Brass Quintet with a local high school wind ensemble. So it'll be a concerto for a brass quintet and a wind ensemble. And it's going to be played by Coda Brass, fantastic brass quintet. They're just, they're awesome. They have replaced the trombone with a euphonium, which I adore the euphonium. So I'm pretty excited to write for that unique combination of things. And I'll keep my thoughts on the trombone to myself. I love the trombone in a lot of contexts, but I think for that ensemble specifically, it works really nicely, the euphonium. So that'll be premiered by the Clearview Regional High School and CODA. And then it'll be played at Rutgers by their second band. And I believe it will also be played at Rowan University in New Jersey and at a local high school in Pennsylvania that I did a commission for last year. So we've got a small consortium put together. I'm super excited about it. The piece is going to be really cool. It's called Supernova. Can't wait. So that's coming up. I'm writing that over the summer and then Clarinet Fest as always. I've got a handful of pieces being played. I'll be playing two of my own and then I have two other premieres. The Concerto piano recital version that I mentioned and one other a duo for clarinet and English horn played by my former clarinet professor which is super cool, and sort of a huge honor. And then for contacting me as always my website nadinesilverman.com and my social medias particularly Instagram I’ll answer that relatively fast. Yeah, that's it that's all I got going on.

[Aaron] That's all? I'm just kidding. But yeah, that contact will be in the description. Dr. Paco, same with you. What's coming up? And what would be a good place to contact you?

[Dr. Paco] Yeah, I don't have as much coming up as Nadine. I still have a handful of things. The biggest thing for this summer is Clarinet Fest. I've got a few pieces playing. I'm actually, this will be the first Clarinet Fest where I'm only attending as a composer, which is, it'll be a kind of a new role for myself. So it'd be, it's going to be fun. I'm really excited. I have some projects in the works for the future, but they're still kind of in that amorphous phase of kind of, you know, they're coalescing together. And so that's, that's exciting to look forward to. And then, yeah, as far as contacting me, there's my website, which is fjdmusic, sorry, fjdmusic.com. And then that's where I have all my music, if you're ever interested. And then the best way the kind of the, if you want to see more of me or like a lot of me, really, it's going to be my Instagram. And that's PacodeAlba33. And yeah, so there it's, it's just kind of, right now I've been highlighting a lot of my old music, but especially with gearing up for Clarinet Fest, I've kind of got a lot of behind the scenes that I'm going to be sharing of the pieces that I'll be premiering at Clarinet Fest. Yeah, just a bunch of lessons that I've learned along the way, as far as trying to build a career in music. Yeah, just kind of the positive vibes are there. So if you're, if you need some positive vibes, just head over there.

[Aaron] Positive vibes. Indeed. Thank you very much. And to close out, I'm going to give the last word to you guys. Uh, Dr. Paco, let's go back to you first. Just a closing message to the audience about anything we've talked about today or anything else you want to say.

[Dr. Paco] It just came to my mind. One of my tips or lessons learned actually really kind of relates to this topic. My favorite, one of my favorite quotes is “turn rejection into redirection”. So if you are getting lots of rejections or if you're just finding that it's a season of maybe other people are being celebrated, that's what it is. It's just a season. Your time will come. And sometimes a rejection will lead you through a door you never thought was open. So yeah, just take that going forward.

[Aaron] Wonderful. Professor Silverman.

[Professor Silverman] As a composer, especially as a young composer your portfolio speaks more than your awards. The pieces that you've written and had played are going to move you forward more than winning a competition or shelling out to attend a festival. Those things are good and they are productive but it doesn't mean that you'll never get anywhere if you can't do those things. It is okay to not be able to win a competition. They're very hard to win. And if you run a competition and happen to be listening to this, do not ask composers to submit only unpremiered works and please normalize paying artists for their art.

[Aaron] That, yeah, certainly normalize. Paying artists for their art. What a novel concept. Not paid in exposure. Anyways, well, this has been a fantastic roundtable on festivals and competitions. Thank you, Dr. Paco, Professor Silverman, for coming back onto the podcast. It's been wonderful to catch up with you, to talk about this and a litany of other things. Thank you very much. Hello. This is Aaron again. I want to thank you for listening to this episode of the Theorist Composer Collaboration. I also want to give another big thank you to Dr. Francisco Javier de Alba and Professor Nadine Silverman for coming back onto the podcast. Their contact info is listed in the description. I would appreciate it if you could show them some support. For further updates and notifications on the Theorist Composer Collaboration, make sure to follow our Instagram and Facebook pages. You can listen to future episodes through our host website, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, Music, iHeartRadio, and YouTube, so make sure you subscribe to the platform of your choosing. If you want to monetarily support the work of the TCC, you can click the link to our Buy Me a Coffee page. All donations are highly appreciated. All of the relevant links to follow, listen to, and support the show are in the description. TCC episodes are posted every other week on Mondays, and don't miss our blog posts, which go live a few days before a new episode is added. Make sure to follow our social media accounts and relevant streaming platforms, because you won't want to miss it. Until then, this is Aaron, and thank you for joining the TCC.