TCC 41. Resonancia Natural - Dr. Carolina Heredia

[Aaron] Welcome to the Theorist Composer Collaboration, a podcast interview series highlighting modern composers and music theorists. My name is Aaron D’Zurilla, I'm the host of this podcast and also a music theorist myself. Today I'll be talking with the composer Dr. Carolina Heredia, and also featuring her piece Resonancia Natural. Dr. Heredia and I discuss her background, multidisciplinary composition, sonic connections to nature, and much more. So, without further ado, this is an excerpt. from Resonancia Natural, and welcome to the TCC. Again, the music that you were just listening to is from the piece Resonancia Natural by the composer Dr. Carolina Heredia. Speaking of which, Dr. Heredia, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

[Dr. Heredia] I'm doing well. Thank you for having me, Aaron.

[Aaron] Of course, it's a pleasure to have you on. And could you please introduce yourself personally, professionally, academically, whatever you choose?

[Dr. Heredia] Sure. My name is Carolina Heredia. I am a composer originally from Argentina. I compose acoustic and electroacoustic music. And I also love collaborating with others in multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary or intermedia projects. My background is in Argentinian folk and popular music and also in Western European classical music. Aside from composing, I have also worked in academia as an assistant professor in music composition at the University of Missouri and as a director of programs for the American Composers Forum.

[Aaron] Wonderful. What university did you teach at?

[Dr. Heredia] I taught at the University of Missouri in Columbia. I was a postdoctoral fellow first, and then I had a tenure track job for around four years before I decided to move on to arts administration with the American Composers Forum.

[Aaron] Wonderful. American Arts Forum. So what are you doing there now?

[Dr. Heredia] I am not with the American Composers Forum anymore. So maybe that part could be cut. I stopped very recently, actually.

[Aaron] Okay, fair enough, fair enough. And so you talked about multidisciplinary and also your interaction with a visual art medium. And so this is to dovetail into the question to how would you describe your composition or your compositions? And in extension, how does it relate to the visual interdisciplinary medium?

[Dr. Heredia] I've always had an interest for interdisciplinary since I was very young. So that it's kind of like a natural development. In my time in Argentina, I started experimenting with interdisciplinary, but always working with collaborators. from the other fields like visual artists and also electronic musicians, because at that time I wasn't trained on electronic music. And then when I moved to the U .S. and I pursued my studies at the University of Michigan, then I had the chance to go more in depth on electronic music, and also production. So yeah, that's, again, something that developed naturally from my interest in dance. Dance is what brought that visual aspect into everything that I do.

[Aaron] Now, I enjoy engaging in this question with the different composers I have on who work within electronic music medium. What is it about the element of electronics and the piece that we'll be talking about today has an electronics track. What about that is attractive in the compositional process?

[Dr. Heredia] I think it's primarily the sounds that I can create this type of sounds like really speak to me. And it's we can talk later about this but the, you know the textures the colors of the sounds and the kind of decentnesses and distortions that I can create. I have to admit that I also like having control over that, because as a composer I lose a little bit of control, right? And the final sound of my works because I collaborate with performers. And I enjoy that, too. I love the surprises sometimes on different interpretations for what I wrote. But I like to have my space, too, in a way as a performer by creating these electronic tracks. And most of the time they are fixed media. I may layer different tracks. I may try to provide as much flexibility as possible for the performers' experience. But I like working with fixed media because in that way then I have that power of the ultimate sound decisions. Sometimes I combine them. I like creating the illusion of something live happening with the electronics, but it's always a combination. And for various reasons, not only because I like to control the final sound but also because logistically, sometimes it solves a lot of the possible issues that could happen in live performance. And so trying to reduce the possibilities for errors or mistakes in a performance is also important to me. And that's why I look for that balance between live processing and fixed media. And again, the performer's experience, not feeling that they have to. become robotic to be able to function in that environment so that they feel some kind of flexibility.

[Aaron] Yes, I'm sure. I mean, and it's your expression in your art. You want to have some layer of control over, especially if it's something that's a little bit more extraneous that cannot be easily acoustically replicated. I'm thinking about famed composer and theorist Milton Babbitt and how he famously preferred complete electronic performance for the idea of just absolute control, which I have a lot to say that's mean about that. But there is something to say about that kind of artistic control in your own expression. Now, I had this question listed for a little bit later, but since we're talking about fixed electronics, I just wanted to ask, as someone who has not composed with a fixed electronic track, it seems daunting. How do you, when you're sitting down and writing, conceptualize a fixed electronic track alongside live performed instruments? Do you compose the live instruments first? Do you compose them against, like with each other? Or how are you writing that to get them to line up?

[Dr. Heredia] Normally, it's a back and forth. And that's what I also work in electronics on its own. I like moving from different softwares. Logistically, I may work on a digital audio interface and start like layering the acoustic instruments like writing, just assign a digital instrument and so that I can have it present there if I need it when I'm creating the electronics. But many times, again, I go back and forth between notating the acoustic parts and then bringing some of those elements into the electronic product that I'm creating in a different software. There's usually a lot of communication between both of them. And in my imagination, they are happening simultaneously. The creation is happening simultaneously.

[Aaron] Wonderful. Wonderful. And before we move on to talk about the piece that's actually featured today, Resonancia Natural. I would be amiss if I did not just backtrack a little bit because I find it so interesting. Can you talk a bit about the influence that South American folk and Argentinian music has on your composition? The obvious answer is that that's your heart and soul. That's where you come from, obviously. So it's going to have inherent influence, but just maybe on a technical level or just when you're writing, what place does it have in your compositional techniques and approach?

[Dr. Heredia] Yeah, let me first talk a little bit about my relationship with music because not everybody that is from Argentina may have a connection with folk music and popular music. When I was a kid, I did dances. So my relationship with folk music was through dance first, very early on. When I was a teenager, I started playing folk music. I had a very classical education. I started violin at the conservatory when I was seven and so up until up until I was 16 in music I didn't have that experience. And then I joined a band and started playing folk music. And suddenly I didn't use a part, a written part, and then I started writing arrangements for my bandmates. And that's how, actually how I got into composition. But I just wanted to say that that my relationship with folk music is deep. It's from a very early age in my life. And it starts with dancing, which is very important folk music from Argentina. And so I don't think it's appearing in my music in a very evident way. Perhaps it may be hard for you to see where it is. So it may not be so explicit, but it's embedded in other ways, in more abstract ways, in the ways that I think about the musical ideas, perhaps the form, the rhythm, some of the melodic contours, and the way that I shape those musical ideas. I'm not quoting folk tunes. or trying to mimic them. But as you say, they are in me. They are embodied in me, and they're coming through in those ways in the music. Phrase, time, pulse, and obviously the culture influence perhaps, the approach to storytelling sometimes, and in the way that is also related with the community. community issues yeah something that goes beyond some of those little music elements perhaps

[Aaron] Certainly. I’m sure if I was Argentinian myself or studied the music in uh in some level of depth I’m sure that I would pick up on things that were are more embedded within the music. The only experience I have with Argentinian music of any kind is pretty surface level. It's Piazzolla. That's basically it. And there's lots of other influences on him as well, not just Argentinian. So I'm not very knowledgeable, but thank you for providing that.

[Dr. Heredia] Well, it's different in Argentina. The concept of folk music is a little different than the U.S., so perhaps that also needs to be clarified. In Argentina, folk is mainly a mix between indigenous peoples' music and European, so the colonizers. And some of the forms and the dances have remained more separate, and some of them have mixed. And so, yeah, there are different traditions in terms of the harmony that is being used, the musical gestures, and sometimes also the techniques, the performance techniques. But it's important to mark that difference because it's very, I guess it's much more defined in Argentina what folk music is. That's what it is. It's indigenous people's music. Sometimes in more pure ways and sometimes mixed with European salon dances.

[Aaron] Very fascinating. Very interesting. And thank you for making that distinction. Something that I'm clearly not aware of and I'm going to gamble most people listening are not either. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you for that.

[Dr. Heredia] You mentioned Piazzolla, and Piazzolla, who is more from the tango tradition, which is considered popular music in Argentina, it's a different story, because tango is something that is developed in Buenos Aires, so it's urban, and it has the influence from time in Argentina where there was a lot of immigration from places in Europe at the beginning of the 20th century. And so, you know, it's a different story for that. It's a different kind of music, but it's also been present in my life because I played with a lot of tango bands.

[Aaron] And I'm sure also the dance influence a little bit too.

[Dr. Heredia] Yeah, absolutely. It has different how would you call it, streams of development. And you mentioned Piazzolla. Piazzolla is considered to be the third wave in tango development. So yeah, that strict association with dance happens at the beginning, a little bit in the second wave. In the third wave is when the music becomes more detached from the dance. And so the form becomes a little bit freer. And of course, Piazzolla, as you said, he grew up in the U.S. and also lived in Europe a lot. Not only played jazz, but also studied classical music, classical contemporary music. And then he brings all of those influences in the tango, which was much more traditionalist before that. And so he starts this third wave which I think we're still in and I don't think we have moved on from that one yet.

[Aaron] The world is very complicated especially when, that's such a trite thing to say. Yes, thank you. Thank you. And let's turn our focus towards, we could keep talking about all that sort of stuff the entire podcast. It's so fascinating and complex. But let's turn our focus towards the featured piece by yours, Resonancia Natural. Can you talk a bit about the title and the intention behind the piece?

[Dr. Heredia] Sure. You can call it Natural Resonance.

[Aaron] I want to be respectful. It's what it's called. So I'm going to try to say it, even if my Southern tongue is slow.

[Dr. Heredia] Well, since I'm bilingual, it's the same for me with those titles. I appreciate the effort. And there was an interest in bringing this, the title of this piece in Spanish. Of course, you know, with titles and with language in general, there's a sound matter that is important. It's important for poets and it's important for me too. And, you know, natural, Resonancia Natural.

[Aaron] Yes, yes.

[Dr. Heredia] Resonancia Natural is how it would sound in Argentinian, I should say.

[Aaron] I'm not quite that good.

[Dr. Heredia] It's like the R role, resonancia, a little bit also resonates with the concept, right? There's a little bit of resonance in the sound of the title too. But yeah, so the title. It carries both poetic and conceptual weight. It refers to the acoustic phenomenon of resonance. And I explore this in the piece and the instrumental timbres and the electronic sounds. But it also speaks in a more conceptual way about ecological and emotional resonance, how we respond physically and spiritually to our environment. And as you know, there's an inspiration beyond the piece, which is the endangered Santa Cruz River watershed. And so I wanted to reflect on that fragility and the interconnectedness of natural systems and also for us as human beings.

[Aaron] Certainly. And at the bottom of the program notes. It says that this was a commission. Can you talk a bit about that and the whole process behind it?

[Dr. Heredia] The work was commissioned by Sarah Fracker, Jackie Glacier, and Marisa Oligario, and it also includes a video by Bert Harris. The electronic track includes some field recordings collected by Luke Barbaro, who is an ecologist and biogeographer, and they were collected from the Sabino Canyon, Madera Canyon, and Patton Hummingbird Center in Patagonia, as well as the Empire Ranch in Las Cienegas. I included excerpts from this field recordings with minimal processing, but I also extracted data from them, primarily about rhythm and texture that I assigned to software instruments to create the sounds that are in the electronic track. This work is part of a larger multidisciplinary project directed by Sarah and Jackie that includes partnerships with many other artists, scientists, and also indigenous communities. And the goal, and I'm going to quote them here, is to create a sustainable model for environmental stewardship.

[Aaron] Something I was thinking about when you were talking about that is, so this piece in many ways advocates for the preservation and respect and explores our connection with nature on an emotional level. And I'm thinking about the world as a whole and the relationship that we have as people with nature and also perhaps governments with nature, which often can deem something worthy or not. I personally am very aware of the United States government and the U.S. people's relationship with nature, which is tenuous at best sometimes. And there is a lot of struggle, emotional weight, and well, there's a lot going on with that, rightfully so, because we do not treat nature as it should be. And I'm wondering, what is the zeitgeist like in Argentina and where these natural locations are? What is the perspective on preservation and people's connection with nature in contrast to the United States?

[Dr. Heredia] Wow, that's a big question. I think in general, it could be better. But I have to say that definitely a more unhinged capitalist model.

[Aaron] Even more than the United States’ unhinged capitalist?

 [Dr. Heredia] No sorry. So let me rephrase that. So I said I think it could be better in Argentina, what you're saying, you know, that connection, that awareness and that action also. But it's not as bad as it's manifested in the U.S. due to the unhinged capitalist system. That's what I meant to say. That is how I see it in the U.S. And yes, definitely, we are so separated from nature. It seems that we're two different things that don't have influence on each other and you can see people living a completely different life in much more harmony. I observe that in places that are not so developed in terms of like suburbs or cities or technology. um I you know I’ve had time to observe what does it feel to have that connection that you actually depend on nature. And I’m just going to tell this a very short story from a time that I traveled to the north of Brazil and I stayed in a small city where most local people were fishers. And in speaking with them, something that called my attention was that at night they would observe the moon because the moon, depending on the moon phase, then that was going to influence the tides. And that was going to change the geography of the beach, which would influence how far they could go with the boats for fishing on the next day. That was so impressive to me because yes sometimes I look at the moon not every night right from a city sometimes you look at the moon and it's just a thing that you may say like how pretty. But how different it is to be so connected to that and that it will have an influence on you know what you're gonna feed yourself with the next day, how you're going to secure your resources for the day. You know, it's interesting to think of that. And of course, there are different ways of being and we have to adapt to the different situations. But I think it's a wonderful thing. It's a truth that we don't see, that it's there and we don't see because it may be very obvious in that context. But as we're talking about a Resonancia Natural and what inspires it you can see, well perhaps you don't want to admit that truth but that connection and that influence is there and it will eventually catch up with us. And so it's making that exercise of reconnecting and understanding and acknowledging that connection and that interconnection right that we influence they influence us.

[Aaron] Yes, certainly. That's, as someone who I've not necessarily lived in a city all my life, but never in a situation as those people in the villages you were talking about. I've never personally experienced connection to nature in that way. That's probably growing up lower middle class in the United States. That connection is not as strong for me, but it's always fascinating to hear stories of that. So thank you. And one of the ways that you achieve that in this piece is through the timbral resonance. Particularly with the interaction of the acoustic instruments and the electronic track. And this is going back a little bit to what we were talking about with the idea of like resonant control with the timbre of the piece. Now of course there's a professional recording of this piece so you have a good number of control over that with the mix and the master and how it's staged. But let's say in a live performance medium, how do you ensure that the timbre of the piece and the sound of it has the same impact as you know listening in headphones like we do you know over the internet or something like that?

[Dr. Heredia] Well I don't expect it to be, my concept when I’m mixing because I did the mix for this one. I understand that there are two completely different things, one thing is the experience that you'll have by listening with headphones or at home with speakers in a very controlled environment and a very different experience is what you're going to have in live performance. And so I embrace that idea and that's why I didn't stop myself at post-producing, I really post-produce that track. There is a lot of manipulation to make the balances be so integrated. And I don't expect that to happen live. I haven't heard this piece live yet. It was premiered last year and it's going to be performed again now in the summer, now in July. Again, I embrace that idea. And, you know, I'm also with all the experience that I have in production, I understand that it could be almost impossible to have that expectation especially when the performers are taking the piece on tour and may go to venues that you know not always will have everything that I would dream of right. I would like to have like an immersive environment even if it's just this is what we did for the premiere, we had four speakers and it was like a duplicate duplicated stereo image for the audience. So that was surrounding the audience and the performers were on stage with no mics, no amplification. But again, that should be ideal in some places and not so ideal in other places. I can't be there for all the performances. And so, you know, they had this reference of the recording. They know that I will love for the electronics to be as integrated as possible with the instruments. So ideally the levels should be like that. But that will change, right? I can't give them, you know, so much specific information because the acoustics of each place will change it. The equipment of each place will change it. The audience, you know, the position of the audience and the number of people in the audience will change that acoustic results. And so I give them a base, like a reference, and I understand that things may vary in a live environment. And I'm fine with that. I also trust my performers. This trio, they're incredible musicians and they've been very involved in the mixing as well. Their ideas and their opinions. So I have full trust that they'll navigate those situations in live performance and try to reach the best possible result with that idea. What's important is that the instruments and the electronic should blend, right? So whatever it takes with that. The placement of the speakers, the instruments, micing or not, and then other things. You may want to also play with other parameters.

[Aaron] Certainly. It's like letting your baby go, you know out of the nest.

[Dr. Heredia] You have to let it go.

[Aaron] Certainly. I’m sure that's just part of the job in a way. Yeah so yeah Let's talk a little bit more specifically about the piece and let's get a little bit music theory-y. So I'm going to, I'm going to ask you the general question first, and then I'm going to, you know, read through my little analysis that I sent you. And then we'll talk about that question, which is I'm very curious about how you constructed the harmonic language of this piece. Because we're talking about resonance which has a timbral element but of course has a harmonic element especially when we're dealing with tonal instruments, or primarily tonal instruments I should say it's not always. And so I recognize that the beginning part of this piece, and closer to the end which we'll talk about in a little bit, had a lot of a lot of unison, and a lot of very close dissonance. Maybe a minor second, major second, maybe a minor third. That's not dissonant. But a very tight or unified sound, depending on how the texture was moving. And I recognize that's probably for the listener to focus on the timbre and to focus on the effect. And moving towards like the middle part of the piece, I noted at measures 49 and 52. This is just an example of how I noticed it became a little bit more, let's say, harmonically motivated, is that you had this little section that was a very well orchestrated and decorated presentation of an F sharp major chord and then it leads to the starting note of a G the next time that a clarinet comes in. And then through I guess this is hard to convey just purely through audio means, not seeing the score, but then this G then leads to this like network of what appears to be like an E-flat major area. And I’m saying that by like an E-flat chord being orchestrated through the strong held strong beats of the instruments. And so then in the abstract you have this like F-sharp major area leading to a G which then sprawls into an E-flat major area. And I'm being very loose about this because the piece is in of itself with how you orchestrated the tonality. And so bringing all that together and backing up a little bit, those were my observations with how you constructed the harmonic language. But now let's actually ask the person who wrote it, how did you construct the harmonic language of this piece?

[Dr. Heredia] Yeah well the piece has three main parts conceptually and this is something that we discussed with the performers and with the visual artist at the beginning and we wanted to have a very loose structure for how the piece was going to be. And the idea with the visual artist is that we were going to be informing each other on how we develop these ideas. So as I described in the program notes, the first part is in a way trying to express a natural resonance you know, how would nature be without interference? You know, that natural balance. I have to say that dissonances are enjoyable for me personally. I get almost, I don't know if it's like psychological or physical enjoyment from the beating of dissonances. And so I don't have a negative connotation with that, you know, they sound as beautiful. And so in the first part, there are also a lot of like dissonances, vibrations in the electronics and in the instruments. And the idea is that they start distorting as we're going to the middle part, in which the idea was to convey well this invasions and disruptions to a natural balance. And then going towards the last part for which we wanted to convey a message okay can we imagine a better future? Can we, like, change course? Can we find ways of restoration? And so even though it sounds that we're coming back to the same place, you know, hopefully, it can't be the same place, right? Because in that way, like, we are linear. And so there has to be something will be different. You know we were concerned with our role as artists with this piece in that sense is responding to that need to communicate and to give hope to the community and so it's you know taking all of this scientific and community work information. And it's trying to present that information so that the community can feel compelled to learn more about this. And it's inviting to get involved and to imagine a better future. If we can't imagine it, then it's really hard to build something towards that. So that's the conceptual idea of the three parts. And harmonically, I think I constructed each of the parts separately with that in mind. And of course, I'm aware of how harmony can have an impact and having those senses of, you know arrival or this movement right? Movement towards something different. And so definitely having that in mind for each of the parts and trying to express that movement.

[Aaron] I find that so fascinating and particularly because relating to how so not knowing that. You all were very conscious of that. And I did recognize that it was a large form ABA, which not literally, but it's a starting idea, a middle idea, and then a return. And to hear how you were talking about that with essentially an invasion of people into nature. So when I was analyzing this piece just on my own whims, not knowing that I identified, okay, the resonance of the beginning and the end is its own thing. That's its own purpose. But then in the middle section, symbolizing our invasion into the space, I started imposing my, academic like, networks into what is an invaded, like an invasive invasion space. And so like, almost symbolically like in the area of the piece representing how we disturb nature, I was disturbing the network by imposing my analysis on top of it. A fascinating thing to think about with that.

[Dr. Heredia] I think your analysis was very accurate because as a composer, my way of creating is, you know, I had to talk a lot about this in my teaching, and it was very helpful. When you teach, you have to make your thinking clear so that you can pass it on, you know. Many times I've been told, oh, you were intuitive, because perhaps I can't sometimes, I don't remember exactly how I created things after they happened. And sometimes that comment could have a negative connotation in certain environments. But this is the thing. I have studied classical European music since I was seven. Because at the conservatory in Argentina, the education is also fully based on Western European classical music. And I started studying music theory, maybe not at seven, but I think those classes start like two years later or something like that. So by when I was 13, I had finished all the music theory courses of harmony, sight reading, you know, everything from basic knowledge of like European western classical music I already had it when I was 13. And so and then I went to the university in Argentina and for something that is called licenciatura, which is a five-year program in music composition. And I continue my studies of classical music there, although that program had an emphasis in popular music. And so I also studied jazz music, jazz harmony, applied to the keyboards, and a lot of different techniques for thinking about harmony, just as a multitude of sounds. And so you know, then I went on to the years of Michigan and I kept taking more theory courses, you know, advanced harmony, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I did my doctorate there too. And so there's no doubt that I have all the information inside me about, you know, those different languages in music and in harmony, structure or everything. Now when I’m composing that knowledge is there and that knowledge becomes a part of my intuition. And so when we talk about intuition and what doesn't what is intuition right intuition it it's coming from us as individuals it may have some connection with the metaphysics or with the collective, obviously, but it's primarily coming from our own experiences and knowledge. And so when I'm being called intuitive, I take that as a positive thing, because in my view, it does express that I have all of that knowledge integrated in a way that I can apply it in a more unconscious way. You know that to me is into intuition is the applying of all of that knowledge and experience into what I’m doing. I love getting in modes of flow as they call it, and it's very common in those modes to like really not be so connected with the more like rational part. And so this is when music theories I love music theories that come and like look at the music and then can see and interpret all of those things that were happening during these moments. I appreciate that. I think it helps understand, you know, and through these conversations that we're able to have, then we can make that more conscious and then we can pass it on because that's the thing. The problem if you only stay in the intuition part is that you can't explain, you can't pass it on. And that is so interesting for me to have the chance to read other composers and thanks to music theorists and people that help them express those thoughts as clear as possible.

[Aaron] Yes, I mean, I completely agree, particularly with that last part, of course. But yeah, the concept of intuition or the label of intuitive composer, something that I've become familiar with over the year and a half of having this podcast is that's something that a label or a concept that a lot of composers seem to struggle with. And similar to yourself, I never see that as a bad label whatsoever because at least philosophically for me when I hear music I'm hearing the person who's writing it speak. And if how we speak is everything that we are leading up to that moment then so is the music that's being created. And I apply that philosophically whether that's your music or the music that I study personally, which is primarily rap and hip hop. When I'm hearing the music, I'm hearing the people who created it. And so, yes, it's intuition, but also that intuition is built upon years of study and practice. I feel like intuition gets like when people label that it gets into like that "Mozartian", like capital G genius, whatever, like it's untrained or something. It's like this magical mustering of whatever that's very coded and whatever. And it's also a way to like, some people may feel like, oh, no, I trained very hard to be able to do this. So, you know, but no, intuition is just your ability to express yourself, your trained self, particularly, as well. And before we close out this little section, this is something that was just coming to mind when we're talking about this piece and the resonance of nature and then the disturbance of such and then the return. You know, environmentalism is something that should be, and for many people, particularly of younger generation, is very important. And not just in the United States, but all around the world. And I'm wondering your perspective on the current state of not just environmental protection, but advocacy and the connection that people have. Because, you know, as you're probably well aware, people from the United States, such as myself, tend not to think outside of the borders of the United States, and we're so wrapped up in ourselves. And particularly in this moment where, I'm not asking you to speak on this particularly, but it's hard to feel focused on nature, the environment, and the natural world around us when, let's say in the U.S., nearly random people are being kidnapped by the government and being sent away. Just one example. There's hundreds of others. And it feels almost, at least in a United States perspective, and I guess my perspective, defeating in a way, because it's like, well, I really want to focus on environmental advocacy and our relationship with nature, but we can barely get our own relationship with each other straightened in any way. And that's not to say that what you're speaking about is less important or not important, but it feels overwhelming sometimes. And so this goes to my actual question to you is at least you on a personal level, how do you feel about our relationship with nature and what can be better and how you like deal with that in your own mind?

[Dr. Heredia] I think at the end, it's a matter of individualism working against both social justice and environmental awareness and activism. I observe a common cause, perhaps among others, and therefore the possibility of a common course of action to correct it that doesn't need to be exclusive of one or the other matter. And also that hope is essential. So music and art can help us imagine other possibilities, different futures that can assist us with redirecting our current thinking and practice from our different positions of power and influence, of course. To me, small scale, everyday actions matter, how we conduct ourselves in private and the way we treat others around us also matter and can make a difference.

[Aaron] Certainly, certainly. I apologize for my highly loaded question. I have a tendency to do that. But thank you for giving your take on that. It's certainly all a struggle. Being able to manage emotions and everything going on around you. Well, before we move in, thank you for engaging in that little bit tangential. But before we move on to the final part of this podcast, is there anything else in particular that you want to discuss about Resonancia Natural?

[Dr. Heredia] Would you describe a little bit the video? Because I think that...

[Aaron] Oh, I glossed over that. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. The visual element, because talking about multimedia or multiple elements of engagement, you have live performers, electronic track, and then we have a visual, which of course can't transmute over a podcast necessarily. But Dr. Heredia can you talk a bit about the visual element of the piece?

[Dr. Heredia] Yes, I would like to read the description that bird wrote for the program notes about the video the video projection documents the behavior of locally gathered earth pigments as they move through water echoing past, present, and potential future patterns. The past is created with grassland soil clay from Madera caon and local plants that bloom in the presence of very little water. Into the present we see the water retreat from the bed of the arroyo and las Cienega’s and the dry stream bed of the Sutherland wash. The future is rooted in decomposing soil from the base of the cottonwood tree in empire ranch that was burned in the saumon wildfire of two thousand seventeen where life can be regenerated from death.

[Aaron] Wonderful. There's so many elements going into this piece. I don't know how you mentally organized it all, quite frankly. It seems like a lot. Is there going to be a place that the video will be publicly available at some point?

[Dr. Heredia] Yes, we're currently working on, we're on the last stages of creating a video that has the performers, the performance recorded the music and also the video recently. And so we're now editing the final version that includes again the performers with the projections in the back and also sometimes where the video becomes the main thing. And this is what happens when you do interdisciplinary. It's all of these different mediums working towards the same meaning. In fact, when I decided to share the sound with you, because it's missing that part of the piece that was, you know, an essential part of, it is an essential part of the work. I wasn't sure about sharing this piece or another one, but I discussed it with my team and we decided that, yes, this piece can live like this, can live as an audio-only work, and it becomes a different thing when you're able to see it with the other contacts, particularly the video that Bert created.

[Aaron]I would agree. I would agree. And I will update the description of this episode, regardless of the platform you're listening to this on. Once the video becomes available, if the link's not in there, it's because it's not it's not available yet. But I will update the description as it becomes available. And yes, I will say firsthand looking at the video, it is it's not a different vibe. But it's just different. It's just I'll leave it at that. I'll let people interpret it themselves. But Dr. Heredia, let's move on to the final part of this podcast. And I'm going to start this little section with one of my favorite questions to ask people because everyone says something quite different and leaving this as open as possible. Take it as you want. What does music mean to you?

[Dr. Heredia] I have to say that for me as a composer right first that it's a very subjective place to be when you ask that question. Music to me is my language, is my way of living life. It's of expressing myself of processing what's happening in my life. And in that sense, it's a way of knowing. It's a way of knowing because through music and what I am exploring things that happen, things that I observe or things that I feel in a way I'm understanding it in this other level. Again, it's the same that the language that we use for communicate right here. And again, I had to say that this is subjective place to be because it's, you know, because I create the music, because I process my things through music. But what it is in the more general aspect or in the more general set of things for everybody else again it's a way of knowing to me and I truly believe that. I believe that music can express things that cannot be expressed in other ways and how do you describe them not even music theorists can do that right? There are different ways of knowing and that can happen through the senses you know that can happen in this in more intuitive ways of as we call them and it can happen in a completely different dimension which is what I consider music. I, you know we know that everything around us is vibration and everything we are vibration everything that happens is vibrating constantly We are vibrating constantly in empathy with other things or in contrast. And so in that sense, I think that music has a power that sometimes we don't even realize. There's this physical aspect of music. We can interpret it intellectually. We can put it in a cultural context. But there's also the physical matter of it. We are affected physically when we listen to music because of those vibrations. That's part of what music is to me.

[Aaron] A way of knowing. I like that. I like that little quote. And to bring it full circle, could you say with those vibrations, a certain resonance with the natural world even? Yeah. And so let's extend from that. It's funny that you said not even music theorists know how, how it all works. With the way that's with the way that some people talk, you wouldn't know that they don't know. But let's, let's extend a little bit further into that. You talked about it a little bit earlier that, that you enjoy it on some level, but what is your conceptualization of music theory and its purpose?

[Dr. Heredia] I think music theory is great at music theory comes after music. And I've always been a little, I feel that I've always been a composer. And so look at music theory like that, not like an authority, but more as, you know, a tool to understand. And I know that it can also be so subjective and so wrong. But, you know, I'm an intellectual. I think most composers would probably identify with that. So I do enjoy those intellectual efforts to understand a mind, the thinking of a mind, the reasoning or the fine structure perhaps. And you can imagine a whole structure and it could work and it could be something completely different so I’m also aware of that. And I’m trying to show like you know I have like a deep appreciation for their work and also an understanding of the limitations. And of course depending on your approach, the kind of things that you may be missing, so I don't take anything as an absolute truth but as a proposal for understanding a language, practice, or a particular composer's output.

[Aaron] Yes. I find fascinating that you said that music theory comes after. And on a literal level, that makes total sense. And I personally agree. As you can probably tell from my from this podcast, I care a lot about what the people who make art have to say and how they feel. I think that a lot of times there's probably exceptions that I would agree with, but a lot of times that's the ultimate interpretation is the person who made it. I'm sure there's exceptions to that, but backing up the idea that theory comes after. What is your opinion on some theorists, particularly ones that make highly theoretical networks when it comes to like, I don't know, like microtonal things and so on, about putting theory first or having that as the predominant thing? I'm even thinking about, let's say, the advent of 12 -tone rows or something like that, which for the most part, or even total serialism, something that is quite old at this point, something that was pointedly theory first. What is your opinion on that in the world of composition?

[Dr. Heredia] I think it's not any different than any kind of limitation that creators impose themselves with. For the creation, because when I was composing this piece, I had a lot of limitations too. It had to be about this specific theme and then because of the agreements that I made with my collaborators, it had to have this general structure, you know. So I had a lot of limitations that I had to set at the beginning before I started creating. So I don't think in those in the examples that you marked that theory came first. You know there was a design of this system and this agreement that they wanted to use it and then they just use it and they accept those limitations and they use it. What I meant with the basic theory comes after that you know I don't think you could perhaps explain absolutely everything but just understand the systems so the music theory theorist comes and looks at this particular work and then analyzes that particular work in the context of the history or the composer's development. And so it's different. The work that the music theorist does there and that's what I was referring to. And perhaps I was referring to my experience teaching oral skills at the University of Michigan. So those are the cases where I feel that music theory is presented as first, as coming first. Because, you know, obviously there is this main dominant system of thinking about sound that is presented to students very early on as if it was the ultimate, the only and the best. And I think that is dangerous and limiting to think about sound that way, to train professional musicians to think that music can only or should only or is better if it's organized with that understanding of the parameters of music, right? Like pitch, scales, or harmony. I would love as a composer to see more an openness on there and start to think about sound instead of scales. Can we first talk about sound? I would love to see more of an approach with the study of electronic music. Because in electronic music, it's common to start by the physics of the sound. So first, I understand, okay, what is sound? How it's influencing us. And then we can start this historical and cultural different perspectives on working with that sound as a way of intentionally expressing emotions or stories or messages. I love to see that approach.

[Aaron] I agree with you. I agree. And I mean, I don't have an answer to what you're suggesting or saying either. That’s of endless debate in the music theory field, as you're probably aware as well, because this is something that Professor Dr. Buchler and I talked about on an episode a little bit ago. That music theory as a field, particularly now, is incredibly intellectually diverse at the higher echelons of thinking about sound first and timbre first, especially in electronic music study and analysis, incorporating physics and mathematics into that sort of analysis and thinking about sound as a physical object. But the lower levels of music theory discourse, not to say lower level as in it's not important, in some ways it's even more important, the classroom level, that has stayed concrete. For the most part. There's improvement on the margins. Like, okay, maybe instead of Brahms, we'll look at Amy Beach or something like that. And still from the Western European classical tradition, but whatever. And so I completely agree with you. I would be arrogant to say that I have an idea of what the solution would be, but I suppose I'll personally leave it at that, but I completely agree. Yes, it would be good if at the classroom level for people that we are training as musicians to think about sound and music as bigger than a chord or a scale or something of that sort. I wish I had the answer.

[Dr. Heredia] In a single sound, you can have all of this other, you know, you can go so much more in depth in thinking about one only sound. And perhaps there could be a way of, you know, creating that kind of education that gives you more general parameters to analyze. you know, different practices, different traditions, as you said. And I'm fully aware of what you're saying, and I'm loving the new waves and new psychology, too. Like, sound studies, it's so wonderful, and it brings, like, many, many other dimensions, too. You know, the cultural, the political, of, like, how sound is present and influences our lives. But, yeah, you say it right, and that's why I mentioned aural skills, because I had to teach aural skills as a composer. As a doctoral composer, I had to teach all skills and it was so challenging to say, you know, only train my students on tonal music from classical European traditions. And to think about, you know, intervals in that way, to think about like harmony in that way, because I don't believe that. And again, because you're training young minds and you're like really imposing so many limitations. But we will get there. As you said, it's happening in this more like advanced parts of the world of music theory and musicology, and hopefully it'll make it to the classrooms at some point.

[Aaron] Hopefully. That is the hope. It's ongoing and has been struggle. Yeah. But certainly, I'm sure it was quite vexing to be teaching in some ways an ideology of sound that you personally don't believe in. Actually it is an ideology of sound, one that is um white and European and old but obviously we could go on for a while about that but for right for right now we're going to case that. Before we get into closing questions, I do want to ask on the compositional side, what is your perception or opinion of the landscape of composition right now?

[Dr. Heredia] I would have to divide it right in Argentina and the U.S. as I normally have to. So let's just talk about the U.S. Well, as you know, I was working as the director of programs for the American Composers Forum. Through that experience and also through the experience as a teacher, I had a chance to connect with younger musicians. And the thing that you're describing in music theory, it's also happening in music composition. I think composers are feeling more of that freedom to engage with different influences that they may have and bring things that perhaps in the past were not well seen to bring to these spaces. There was a lot to be done on the other side of things and that's why I mentioned my arts administration job because that gave me a great opportunity to engage with all of the part of the environment that is on the other side. So the venues, the CEOs of nonprofits, like funders, foundations, and even people involved in logistics. And I could see that there's a need for deeper change in those structures and in how they interact with composers to be able to allow what's happening. What's happening in the world of creation, there's still not a good structure to be able to support it. And, you know, a little bit tied with what we said before, we have to understand that for change to happen, there needs to be investment. And that's the part that's like failing, right? Because that investment, it's not small and it's not just money. It's also the change of attitudes, the change of habits, the change of spaces to really allow for a new voice. As a general, I'm just going to say like plural, a new voice to emerge, a new space for composers that could be hopefully socially committed. This is something that I personally believe and I also always make a call to other artists. You know, we're not in the 20th century anymore. I think we have to be truly committed with our communities and to embrace a larger role in society. And we can also do that by being present with communities and then in bringing all of that knowledge into these other spaces. But for that to happen, there needs to be space for experimentation and there needs to be space for things to go around because that is part of the process as they're creating something new, as they're hoping to create something new. So there is slow change and I have observed it. There are institutions like orchestras, which is the hardest one to move forward because it's so heavy and so rooted in tradition. But there are some changes. I appreciate initiatives that include workshops, for instance, workshops that allow a composer to have opportunities to try things out and to talk to the musicians. That is essential for a composer and when you're creating something new you need that space to be provided you need to feel like safe to try things you need to have the time and the space you can't create something new and good with you know no contact with whoever is commissioning you and then a 20-minute rehearsal. So if that's all we're willing to provide for something new to emerge or for new voices to have their space, then it's going to be bad. And so just, you know, it's really not enough.

[Aaron] Wonderful. I completely agree. And I think about similar sort of things within the field of music theory as within my own field of I find it. I find it very odd and concerning when some people feel like that they don't need to be socially conscious and interactive. It's strange. Art is people. And if we're going to analyze or especially in your case, create, there needs to be a greater level of involvement. Thinking of orchestras, just the amount of times I've thought about or people have brought it up, it's like a joke. The most new music sort of orchestra concert will be, there will be three pieces. The last piece will be the serious piece, like a symphony or something by Brahms, or Beethoven, or something. And then and then there's like a medium piece that might be a little bit newer maybe it's a clarinet concerto or something. And then there's the five minute like new music piece at the beginning of the concert or something. Like that yeah at the beginning and it's not the main title of the concerts or so on. But orchestra is a hard one I’m a violinist as well so I understand that. Yeah that that's a hard one. Well we could talk about a number of these topics forever. This is very fascinating, but we are coming to the close of this episode. And before we do, what projects do you have going on? What's coming up for you?

[Dr. Heredia] I'm currently working on the orchestration of my work, Essentia, which is a work that I composed in 2017 and 18 with some revisions originally written for Sinfonietta. It was commissioned and premiered by Alarm World Sound and the Mizzou International Composers Festival. So yeah, excited to be back to engaging with the large ensemble soundboard, which is something that I haven't done in a little while after being focused very much in chamber music and interdisciplinary projects.

[Aaron] What would be a good place for people to contact you with any comments or questions?

[Dr. Heredia] They can contact me to my website email. That's the best because I keep that separated from all of my correspondence. So it's easier to manage. So definitely go to my website. You can send me a note there and I'll see it quickly.

[Aaron] Wonderful. Wonderful. And to close out this conversation, I'm going to give you the final word on this. If you were to say to the audience anything about composition, music, life, nature, anything we've talked about, what would that be?

[Dr. Heredia] I would just speak to my fellow composers in this particular moment in time and history to resist in whatever form that can take or whatever form that is possible in every person's particular situation. And also to stay connected, as hard as that can be for those accustomed to solitude as composers of certain practice, right, that requires that solitude. Stay connected to your community, not only of your community, but also of the community of fellow artists who may be experiencing similar things. And so I have relied heavily on my network of friends, artists, creators, thinkers to just remind each other why we do what we do. And that can help clean a little bit the noise that can generate around that question, the question of purpose.

[Aaron] Wonderful, wonderful. Well, thank you, Dr. Heredia, for coming on to this episode of the Theorist Composer Collaboration. It's been a wonderful conversation with you. We've talked about, oh, like a world and a half about a whole different sorts of things, but that's art, that's music, that's people. And it's wonderful to engage with that. Thank you very much for your time, for coming on to the podcast. It's been great.

[Dr. Heredia] Thank you so much, Aaron. I really appreciate what you do here. I think this is so important and I always love getting to know music theories and people from other fields that have this, you know, this mind that you have. I appreciate this.

[Aaron] Thank you. This is Aaron again, and I want to thank you for listening to this episode of the Theorist Composer Collaboration. I also want to give another big thank you to Dr. Carolina Heredia for coming on to the podcast. Dr. Heredia's contact info is listed in the description. I would appreciate it if you could show her some support. For further updates and notifications on the Theorist Composer Collaboration, make sure to follow our Instagram and Facebook pages. You can listen to future episodes through our host website, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, and YouTube. Make sure to follow our social media accounts and relevant streaming platforms because you won't want to miss it. But until then, this is Aaron. And thank you for joining the TCC.